What the hell...

[Anne Robertson]

Okay, nobody's talking, and I can't believe the bright people here don't have something to say. So, let's raise a little hell. Do you think hell exists? If so, in what form? If not, why not?

[Esther Barber]

I'm wrestling with "God's Love" and universal salvation. "Hell" makes it all the more complicated. It's difficult to not want retribution for "bad" actions by "bad" people. (I like your response to your neighbors' cars.) All this is very difficult stuff.

[Bob De Masse]

I feel strongly that God is the ultimate judge. Even if O.J. murdered his wife and was lucky to escape lifetime imprisonment, God knows what the judge may not know. So often I hear comments like "That person who found Jesus while in jail, after murdering someone, is a hypocrite" or "so and so who goes to church every Sunday doesn't know how to live his own life". Jesus' words about casting the first sone always come to mind. We are all human and human emotions often enjoy visible retribution for those who hurt us. Sometimes we can use humor as a means to fulfill those emotions, such as when a "bad" character suffers humiliation in a kids' movie. My concept of hell is eternal life in a void, not a fiery punishment. Eternal life with God and without human failings seems like such a perfect state of mind that the alternative of a void seems to be a sufficient form of hell.

[Happy]

Some interesting thoughts... the idea of "nothingness" is scary!

On the hell topic -- I'm going to show my ignorance about something. I remember reciting something in a creed about "... he descended into Hell..." what is that all about?

[Anne Robertson]

It's part of the Apostle's Creed, although many Protestant churches (including the UMC) leave it out. The actual Greek of the creed says "He descended to the dead" and references the belief that after the Crucifixion and before the Resurrection, Jesus went to the realm of the dead to bring the good news. This is based largely on a passage in 1 Peter 3:19 where Peter writes that Jesus preached "to the spirits in prison" after his death. It's one of the ways the church has dealt with the "pious heathen" question--meaning all the righteous souls that died before the birth of Jesus.

[Anne Robertson]

In some ways I think we all want hell to exist...for a select number of OTHER people. Just not for us!

I've become pretty convinced that whatever hell there might be is something we create ourselves and choose to inhabit. I can't imagine that the God I know created such a thing or that God would send anyone there. Even if a person sinned from the minute they were born to the minute they died, their sin is still limited by their mortality. Eternal punishment for limited sin isn't even fair, let alone loving.

[Happy]

The heaven vs hell question brings up the question of eternity.

The "hell on earth" concept is something I've thought about for a long time. I remember years ago being in an "evangelism" church meeting where the discussion turned to the need to knock on doors in the neighborhood and ask the traditional questions.. "IF you died tonight, would you go to heaven????" or "Do you have eternal life?" I cringed and squirmed and finally expressed my thoughts and questions... Surely we can be ministers of the gospel with a message of hope and not judgment.

Some people are living a hell on earth and the idea of more of the same for an eternity is bizarre. The beauty of God's unconditional love is the hope for the here-and-now. Any eternal part of salvation will just be the icing on the cake for me because I can't begin to comprehend eternity. The abundant life is something I know and am experiencing... God with me NOW.

You raise the question of fairness. There are so many examples of life's injustice. I'm thinking God is the key to justice and the idea of God being "unfair" in the end is incongruent with everything I believe God to be...

[Andrea Schafer]

Oh boy, Anne! Hopefully this will get some discussion going. As a Catholic child I went to bed every night fearing "...the loss of Heaven and the pains of Hell". But as an adult of some years I have come to doubt that the God who created each of us in his own image could let even one of his children suffer eternal punishment. In the book "If Grace Is True..
why God will save every person", Phillip Gulley and James Mulholland vision a scene in Heaven where Hitler kneels and washes the feet of a Holocaust victim with his tears. Luke 3:6 says "....all men will see God's salvation." How will God pull this off? I'm not worrying about that. What I deal with every day is how to live in response to this amazing Grace that God has showered on us. He loves me so much that he will save me in spite of myself. A gift like that, when understood, is a life changing experience.

[Esther Barber]

I just finished reading "If God Is Love" by Philip Gulley and James Mulholland and, in my usual way (?) I have begun "If Grace Is True." I think I would have had more trouble with "...Grace...." if I had not read "...Love..." first. Our pastor today got us thinking about who are Muslims and God's love for ALL people. I am really having a difficult time accepting the idea that God forgives some of the political leaders of our country for their actions.

[Happy]

I joined this forum a couple of weeks ago and I've been waiting to be "caught up" to find time to write.* Looks like that won't happen today and I just can't ignore this discussion. I first heard about the concept of "Universal Salvation" about three years ago when my dear aunt recommended Kirby Godsey's book... "When We Talk About the Bible, Let's be Honest." That book led me to many other authors including Anne's "Blowing the Lid..." My spiritual life hasn't been the same since.

I was shocked and angry that I've been taught all my life that salvation is only for those who "accept" and this whole adventure came to a sudden cross road one day in church. (How about I save that story???... you won't believe it!) I taught Sunday school today and it was a tough lesson for me because the lesson was about redemption. Last week I asked everyone to consider this question: What is the difference, if any, in redemption and salvation? The discussion started today and quickly led to this idea. REDEMPTION IS FOR EVERYONE (Universal Redemption) BUT SALVATION IS ONLY FOR THOSE WHO ACCEPT REDEMPTION. I mentioned the concept of Universal Salvation and talked about my explorations -- I've done this many times over the past year or so. I keep planting seeds and I know of others in my church who are like-minded, but we are far and few between. It is difficult being a United Methodist in the Bible Belt; many times the UMC is just another flavor of Southern Baptists.

Here's my brief thoughts about US before I HAVE to get back to work.
*** the story of the lost sheep exemplifies God's love... the shepherd leaves the other sheep to watch out for each other and he searches and searches (never giving up) on the one lost.
*** I can't imagine withholding my love to my children if they didn't "say" the right thing, holding their mouth just right -- dotting i's and crossing t's. There is nothing -- absolutely nothing -- my own children can do that would stop me from loving them. How could God love us any less?
*** I believe God has a special place in his/her heart that only I can fill... and a special place in his/her heart that only You can fill, etc.

* I've got to go for now. Last week was crazy. I had sinus surgery and my husband hit our precious dog with the car (yes, she's going to be fine... but you can imagine how awful it was). I teach 8th grade Georgia History and I have 129 Civil War projects to grade. I've finished about 3/4 of them and really, really want to start a new week with that behind me. I'm tired of fighting this war!

[Anne Robertson]

Ah, this is more like it! I read If God Is Love this past year because so many people told me it sounded like me...and it does! I loved the book. I need to get If Grace is True.

Many of the struggles come, as Esther mentioned, from a concern for justice. Taking away hell sounds to some like just patting the Hitlers of the world on the head and saying what they did was okay. I have come to disbelieve the traditional notion of hell, because it just can't fit with a loving God, but God must also have something worked out to help those who have behaved atrociously in this life learn something better. A remedial life course or something. Maybe that's how reincarnation fits in...you do it over and over again until you get the love-your-neighbor thing basically right. Do this all again? Now THAT would be hell...

[Esther Barber]

Anne suggested that reincarnation might fit this picture...living your life again until you get it "right." "If Grace Is True" seems to suggest that even after you die, God continues to love you and help you become more loving. That surely suggests some kind of reincarnation. I wonder what I'm "recovering" from??

[Joel Hawley]

Hello to all.
In retrospect I would say that if any of us find out for sure what hell is, we will have missed the mark.
But looking at the views that are out there one that comes to mind is that the fire is eternal, but all consuming, meaning that those that don't make it to the Kingdom will be consumed, and be no more, some awake to eternal life, and others are just dead.

Thank you for your time.