What the hell...

[Anne Robertson]

Okay, nobody's talking, and I can't believe the bright people here don't have something to say. So, let's raise a little hell. Do you think hell exists? If so, in what form? If not, why not?

[Anne Robertson]

Fire in the Bible is also purifying, which makes me remember the most fun (for me) paper that I did in seminary. Kierkegaard wrote that (I'm paraphrasing here) when we forgive, there is actually less sin in the world--that forgiveness literally obliterates sin. I ran with that in my paper and wondered if it weren't possible for God to be completely consistent and forgive everybody but the effects on the recipient would differ, depending on the amount of sin in the person.

If the forgiveness blew out the sin, anyone with even the tiniest speck of goodness would remain--maybe to regrow part of themselves in God's presence in a way that was more helpful. Or maybe to do the reincarnation thing and try again, if you want to go that way. For those few who had managed (if it's possible) to wipe out any shred of goodness in their soul, the forgiveness of God would simply obliterate them.

So, I surmised, maybe forgiveness and damnation are the same thing. Ditto for justice and mercy.

I got an A- on the paper. :-)

[William (Bill) Mayor]

Well I am coming late to this discussion as I just became a member, but part of our problem with this topic, or so it seems to me, is that as 21st century people, we do not have a real understanding of what comes after physical life. Historically there have been understandings of non-physical existence and just what happens there. The Greeks had Hades, which in the New Testament seems to have been equilalent to Sheol. But Hades had two separate parts. The realm of the "Blessed" or "Righteous" and the realm of the "Unrighteous". Neither was a place of eternal torment, although you did not want to be in the realm of the unrighteous, and the Bible seems to reinforce that neither was for eternity. In Revelation, Hades is destroyed after giving up all the souls within it for final judgement.

Since there is a judgment following the time in Hades, whichever part one waits in following the intial judgment, then Hades must be a place of further learning. If one learned well enough during the physical life, then one may enjoy the realm of the Blessed, also called "heaven" or "Paradise". Should one have failed to learn the necessary lessons in the physical life, then the realm of the unrighteous can offer remedial lessons.

Following the second judgment, all who have learned, and retained , the necessary lessons will be perfected and made full children of God. For those who refuse to learn or refuse to retain the lessons, their logical fate would be a slow and lingering self-destruction ending in death. At that point, the loving thing to do would be to destroy these fatally flawed individuals.

[Catherine Minkiewicz]

We had a professor at seminary who said that we have to believe that hell exists because it's in the creed, BUT we don't have to believe that anyone is there. Personally, I see hell as a product of our own individual free will, an active, conscious choice to not accept the gift of unconditional love that is offered freely by God and is, in fact, what essentially constituttes God. This is not an easy thing to do. But if one is determined to say "NO" with their whole being God has allowed for that. The key is in the free will bit - free means not compromised by mental or physical barriers. I think it's pretty hard for anyone to squirm free of God's love.

[Andrea Schafer]

Re: Descended into Hell...............This is part of The Apostles' Creed...........one of the oldest statements of Christian belief and is recited every Sunday in many denominations. We (Presbyterians) say it most Sunday's, occasionally replaceing it with the Nicene Creed. Please know I am not a theologian by any means but we have studied the creed and my understanding is that it refers to Jesus' descent to Sheol, where the souls of those who had died before waited for release. The Traditional Apostles' Creed reads in part "................suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into Heaven...."
The Ecumenical Apostles' Creed simply says ".....he descended to the dead." Having been raised in the Catholic Church and now a member of the Presbyterian Church USA, I have always prayed this creed with no qualms. However I do know some who object to the descent into hell part and just eliminate it when reciting the creed. If we really do believe in a Heaven, then it stands to reason there must have been some way for Jesus to bring all pre-deceased souls to Him. Sheol or hell.............it was just a holding place for souls. (Is that too flippant?)

[Jonathan F. Jones]

I writing this at the crack of dawn, so how intelligent it will be, you people decide. I do believe that there is a place for those who have turned their backs to God, said "no" to God's offer of love and forgiveness. It is a place of great suffering because one is separated from God, the source of life and love, but God did not create it, it was created by those who willingly turn away from God. I believe that God continually offers His mercy and love to all, living and dead, but He will not force it upon us, it is our free will choice whether to accept it or not.

I do not believe in a God as stern Judge, but my current reflection on Scripture leads me to belives that our decisions,our actions have consequences for which we must be accountable for. I am uncomfortable with the thought that no matter what we have freely done with our lives, done or not done with others lives, that there is an eternal "get out of Jail free" card, without us taking responsiblity for our lives, and seeking forgiveness. Still "My thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are My ways, your ways."

[Anne Robertson]

Great post, Jonathan. I hope I haven't made this plug already, but one of the best books that illustrates this point is The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis. The divorce in the title is the divorce between heaven and hell.

In Lewis' vision hell is a grey, blah city where everybody keeps pretty much to themselves. However every day a bus goes from hell to heaven. Anyone can take it and anyone can choose to stay in heaven and not return. Most always choose to return. The book is the story of one person who makes the trip and what happens. It's a great thought-provoker on many levels--the nature of heaven and hell, good and evil, sin and forgiveness. Not quite as great as The Screwtape Letters, but the best on this topic I know of!

[merimes]

Tough one. I know I believe in the afterlife. Taking it a step further and believing there are two realms in the afterlife has always been difficult for me. On the other hand I believe in pre-destination as well. I just don't think a majority of people are cursed to be forever damned.

I have no real basis for this, but I go with the belief that we came from Heaven (at least or souls) or Hell and we are simply visiting this Earth. Ever felt like you knew someone you had never met or though that a person was wise too far beyond their Earthly years? I think those people may be more in touch with their "old souls." Again, I don't have a basis for this, it is more just what I believe. As for the form of Hell? Well, I think some people suffer in different ways every day...perhaps that is part of it too.

[Anne Robertson]

Your mention of us simply visiting this Earth brought a number of hymns to mind, especially one of my favorites..."I'm just a poor wayfarin' stranger a'travelin' through this world of woe, but there's no sickness, toil or danger in that bright world to which I go." Or then there's: "This world is not my home, I'm just a'passin' through..."

I love those hymns, but then I wonder if we see ourselves as only passing through here or visiting, how does that affect our willingness to sacrifice for the sake of preserving the planet? Will we be more lax if we believe this is not our true home?

[merimes]

I think that is where Jesus's commandment to love one another and love your God comes in. We may be here for a short time, but that is our opportunity to love and help one another. Perhaps part of it is to be better beings as a whole.

So many of us struggle to be successful, and so many do not find happiness. What if being here is about finding the correct path God has set before us - until we find it we are not completely happy.

A little off of your original question. Hell is perhaps a place that is "not with God." After all it seems odd to think of Heaven or Hell in physical terms. Perhaps Hell is "without God" and Heaven is "with God."

[Anne Robertson]

I think your last point is right on the money.

As for "right paths," that's worthy of a new discussion topic, so I'm going to lift your statement about that and put it at the start of a new discussion.