Job 13:15

[Anne Robertson]

This is one of my favorite verses, but only in the KJV. In the King James it reads: "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him."

I think it's fascinating that in the NRSV, the same verse has almost the opposite meaning: "See, he will kill me; I have no hope."

In this, I think the KJV is closer to the spirit of Job. What do you think?

[Andrea Schafer]

Hi Anne and thank you for this great opportunity for discussion! I have always been confused by the way various translations of the Bible give a different perspective. The Job verse is just what I mean. I'm not a big fan of the KJV....prefer the New RSV..............but I've also got The Message (my pastor loves it). This translation gives me insights in some NT books but the "blow me away" words of Psalms don't translate into modern English very well. Do you think the many different translations are ways to make us really dig into what God is saying to us in a particular verse or passage? I would love to hear from others on this topic..................and to answer your original question, in this case the KJV more fully reflects to me what the book is all about!
Andrea

[Linda Stoddard]

I too very much appreciate the fresh perspective of The Message and especially Peterson's introduction to each of the Biblical books. For example, this morning, I began Leviticus in my annual read through of the Bible. Not one of my favorite books. But, in Peterson's introduction he states that "Holy means that God is alive on God's terms…" The next paragraph begins, "Because the core of all living is God, and God is a holy God, we require much teaching and long training for living in response to God as he is and not as we want him to be." Later he says, "God cares that much about the details of our lives,…" This kind of introduction gives me courage to plunge into all the laws to see what I can learn.

[Anne Robertson]

Thanks for the great post, Andrea. The many translations often reflect the fact that the original languages of Scripture have not been spoken for many centuries...a millennium even. I was a language major in college and know the difficulties of trying to translate an idea expressed in one language to another. Language holds not only our words, but our cultural understanding and that doesn't always translate.

Add the confusion of a language that no one living speaks anymore and there is the added difficulty of simply discovering what a word means, let alone what cultural understandings may have filled the word as well. The final layer for biblical texts is the theological leaning of the translator.

Take our case in Job. Apparently the Hebrew can mean two very different things. Which one is right? If the text itself could go either way, it is the translator that decides and I imagine they would ask similar questions to the one I asked at the beginning. Which is closer to the spirit of Job and the God revealed in other parts of the Bible? The answer is subjective, leading to dramatically different readings.

That's oversimplified of course, but the subjective element in translation is why I always recommend translations that were put together by a group (like the NRSV or NIV) rather than an individual (like Scofield or Ryrie). It is still subjective, but at least it's the subjective decision of a number of people and not just one person's quirks. The groups generally have their own agendas. The NIV group leaned conservative and the NRSV group leaned liberal, for example. But I still think it's better than some of the alternatives.

I always recommended to parishioners that they read a translation that they're not used to from time to time. Then, when something sounds quite different you stop and say...wait...does it really mean that? And that gets you digging, which I think is healthy and helps our faith to grow.

My main recommendation with struggling with the text...or even just reading before you know you're struggling with it...is to do so in a spirit of prayer. When God reads with you, any translation can open your heart.

[Gloria Thomas]

I agree with what you are saying, Anne, about translations and the things that influence them. When I find something in one translation (usually the NRSV) that puzzles me, I go to 2 or 3 others to compare, then decide which one(s) are most in sync with my understanding of God as revealed in similar situations. Sometimes I just have to go with the majority of translators. I am wary of The Message because he adds too many words and presents what I perceive to be his own interpretation without scholarly background.

[Anne Robertson]

Well, "scholarly" can be a subjective term. Peterson is a professor at Regent University in Vancouver. He holds several degrees, but no Ph.D. There are websites that question his credentials for translating the Bible. However, even if he held twelve Ph.D.s from Harvard, I would still say that one person's paraphrase of the Bible is highly subjective and shouldn't be used as a source for study.

However, Peterson is a good writer and certainly has some interesting insights into the text. So I think his paraphrase is helpful is in presenting difficult texts in an understandable and engaging style which then helps spur the questions that do lead to study. "What? Did Jesus really say that?" "Is that really what Paul meant?" and so forth.

But you're right that we do have to remember that it is a paraphrase and not a translation per se, and that it only represents Peterson's interpretation.

[Andrea Schafer]

After reading Job 13:15 and sending off a quick reply, I began to read (in the NRSV) from that point on. And it hit me that taking one verse from Scripture and trying to interpret from that is not always the best way to read the Bible. We have to take into account the context in which the verse was written, what was the writer or speaker saying in regards to what was going on at that time? As I read on in Job I remembered that this was a man suffering terribly from loss.............a man grieving deeply. I believe that one of the steps in the grieving process is anger at God. And having suffered loss myself (as we all have) I remember a time when I may have thought I had no hope. But read on in Job. He is working through his grief. How about Job 19:25 where (again NRSV) Job says "For I know that my Redeemer lives, and that at the last he will stand upon the earth." (notes indicate "there is no certain translation of these difficult .....verses. What is clear is that Job makes an act of faith in a Redeemer...better, Vindicator"). In any case, I believe the whole book must be read to find that through grief comes hope and finally redemption. Did Job say he had no hope? Maybe. But he ultimately said a lot more. And thanks for bringing this discussion up. I haven't read Job in years..................many many years.

[Anne Robertson]

Ah, the fruits of Bible study! That's what it's all about. I find a text means one thing one day and another the next, depending on where I am in my life. Is there only one meaning? I doubt it!

[Linda Stoddard]

Another place the King James Version differs dramatically with all the other translations I have seen is in the translation of the Greek phrase "pistis Christou Iesou," "faith __ Christ Jesus." I know just enough Greek (and English grammar) to be dangerous – especially around language majors! However, in Greek, the preposition that goes between "faith" and "Christ" is contained in the genitive construction. If you believe it is objective genitive (the reader acts upon the object of the preposition) it would be translated as "faith IN Christ." This is what most, if not all, modern translations use. If you believe it is subjective or authorial genitive (the source of the action is the object of the preposition) it would be translated as "faith OF Christ." This is what the Old King James Version uses. Whose faith is it in each case?

Paul uses the phrase "pistis Christou" multiple times in the Epistles attributed to him when he makes the argument that it is not the law that saves but "pistis Christou." Three examples include Roman 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Ephesians 3:12. Paul does not seem to be giving two examples of human alternatives, observe the Law or have faith IN Christ. Rather Paul seems to be saying that Christ died faithfully for humans while looking faithfully to God. There were no preconditions that humans had to fulfill. God took the initiative to rectify our situation and separation from God. God carried out the solution to our situation in Christ's faithful death. It is Christ's faithfulness that made us right with God not our ability to believe. The only translation I have found that uses "faith OF Christ" rather than "faith IN Christ" is the Old King James Version.

[Anne Robertson]

This was a rallying point when I studied Romans with Luke Timothy Johnson at Candler. When the same grammatical construction is used about Abraham, it is always translated the faith OF Abraham, but other theological interpretations seem to creep in when Jesus is added to the mix.

The NRSV at least includes a note that indicates (at least for the Romans 3:22 passage) that faith IN Christ can just as well be translated faith OF Christ. My English teachers always fussed that prepositions made a difference, and indeed they do!

[Anne Robertson]

When I got in to the office this morning I checked my copy of the TNIV, the newest NIV translation. Like the NRSV, it also has a note attached to Romans 3:22 indicating the OF option for translating the verse. No one has been bold enough to put that translation as the main one and make "in" the note, but it was heartening that both the conservative standard for translation (NIV) and the liberal standard (RSV) have come to consensus with their newest scholarship.

[Linda Stoddard]

That is very good news. It appears all translations are also interpretations. And those interpretations appear to depend on someone’s personal bias or, I would prefer to believe, personal experience with the “otherness” of God. However, I get quite defensive when that person then make their own experience a requirement for how God should deal with me or someone else.

[Marlisa Mills]

I, too, know just enough Greek to be dangerous, however...I wonder if faith "in" Christ and faith "of" Christ might be synonomous? We are, after all, looking at the TRUTH of the scriptures, and not the literal translations.